Monday, August 20, 2018

PART 9:ORAL HISTORIES NYFD FROM SEPTEMBER 11TH,2001

File No. 9110177 
WORLD TRADE CENTER
TASK FORCE INTERVIEW 
EMT FREDDY BURGOS
Interview Date: October 31, 2001
Transcribed by Elisabeth F. Nason 
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MR. RADENBERG: Today is October 31, 2001. The time is now 0719 hours.

Q. I'm Paul Radenberg of the Fire Department of the City of New York conducting an interview with --

A. Freddy Burgos, emergency medical technician for the Department of Fire.

Q. Of EMS Battalion 14. This interview is being conducted at EMS Battalion 14 and is regarding the events of September 11, 2001. Freddy, just begin with when you were assigned to the job?

A. We got assigned to the job. We were responding from the Bronx, down the FDR Highway. As we approached, we see the two burning buildings. Apparently both aircrafts had already crashed into the building. 

As we got downtown, we went through traffic to try and find the staging. We finally get to arrive at our staging area and we pull up. To my right I see one of the towers, I believe it's the first one that came down. In front of me on the other side of the street, there is numerous ambulances there. 

So I decided I didn't want to put myself right in the middle of it, so I backed my ambulance up to the opposite corner. Just then a rumble was heard, and then after it goes black and pieces of metal and so forth and so forth started falling on the ambulance. It goes completely black. 

Thereafter, once it cleared up, I told my partner once it clears up we will get out, get the equipment and we will get out of the vehicle, because we were still in the vehicle. We were actually a little too close. That's where we wanted to go. When the first building came down, after the dust lifted from that one, in front of me, the other ambulances, most of them not Fire Department, private or some other ambulances, burning. I witnessed one vehicle crushed. I witnessed a limb inside the vehicle. There was obviously a person must have been dead inside it. The driver of the vehicle I believe it was.

What else do I say. Me and my partner, Karen Lamanna, get out of the vehicle. We put our equipment on the stretcher. We come down walking, or actually running back to any open buildings, where we could go inside with our equipment. People were in there and set up a little triage area. Little bit of that stuff. Not much thereafter, prior to the second building coming down. 

Fire Department personnel and PD personnel running into the building saying it's safe. Other people in there, including ourselves, were evacuated from that building and moved further away from the incident. As everybody was moving away, we are getting everybody. You could see obviously the body parts that were right next to us.

My partner goes one way. I go back to the ambulance to pick up some more O2 tanks and just prior to getting to the bus, I hear the rumble and I drop everything and I run out. As I'm running, I take a look back, see the cloud of dust coming at me and I go into one of the buildings with a little walkway type of deal and ducked in there and see everything come by, it goes completely black. I waited a little bit before I came out. Come out and I'm walking to find Fire Department personnel. 

I started walking towards the water. I guess I figured if anything else came down, I'd go in the water. I walked alongside the water, until I wound up at one of the -- West Street or Chambers, I'm not exactly sure where it was. I walked over. I spoke to a Captain. I forget which Captain it was. I think it was Captain Rivera. He was looking at me and I'm all dusty and I'm white and so forth, and he says well, where is your partner, I said I think she is dead.

He takes me to the MERV, puts me in there and from then on I stood there. Not too long before I walked up to -- caught a ride actually, up to the Chelsea Piers where everything was being stationed at. Before you knew it, that was the whole day. From there we got shipped back here. That was about it.

Q. Okay. When you first got there, were you on the West Side Highway, West Street? 

A. I was right along the West Side Highway, parallel. 

Q. Somewhere around Liberty?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. When the building came, the first building came down, after you got your stuff out of the bus.

A. My stuff was still in the bus. When the first building came down, we were in the bus when the first building came down.

Q. After that, when you got out of the bus, okay, did you come across West Side Highway, did you head west, do you remember?

A. I think I went down -- these buildings along this side here. We got out of the bus and we came down, down south into one of the buildings in there. That's where we set up our staging area. That lasted about 15 minutes, before somebody else came in and said it's not safe. We came back out and I went to my bus real quick to get more O2 tanks and everybody was going south. That's the last I saw of my partner, by the way.

Q. She was heading south?

A. If I remember correctly, she was heading south on the West Side Highway.

Q. Okay. 

A. I got caught up, because I went back to get more O2 tanks.

Q. Do you remember any -- when you first got there, any other EMS personnel that you recognized down there, officers?

A. Not officers, I saw a couple of people that were there. I remember I saw Patterson, I forget his first name.

Q. Patterson? 

A. One of the workers that was there got hit by something coming down and he hurt his arm. That I remember. Somewhere along the way, there was another EMT, I don't remember who he was. We helped him, he  helped us with all our shit. I don't know where his bus was. I don't think he did either. That was -- the point we came down, when I came out of that building, after the second tower came down, I was alone here.

By this time, when building number two came down, I was alone. I didn't know where anybody was. I commenced going before the second building came down and jumping into one of these buildings. I remember falling on my face a couple of times. I kept tripping over body parts. Like they were covered by dust, so I couldn't see where I was going.

After that I came out and I started walking towards the water. I kept looking at the water because I kept saying to myself, if something else comes down, I'm going to jump in the water.

Q. You could see the Hudson from where you were on the west side?

A. I knew it was there. It was partially blocked, but I knew it was there. My wife works at World Financial Center. So I knew the water was there. From then on I met up with -- as we were walking along the water, I met -- started to see people, bump into people. A couple I knew, a couple of people. Joey Conzo, that was it. Until I finally got  to the (inaudible) from.

Q. Once you reached the Hudson, you went north towards Chambers?

A. Started walking up towards Chambers where --- somebody said something about Chambers as far as West Street, or whatever that street was, as far as the first safety area. So that's basically where I kept heading, along the water. Basically kept heading that up that way; rubble, mess, shit like that, body parts everywhere.

Q. Yes, yes.

A. (inaudible). 

Q. Do you remember offhand what vehicle you were in, the vehicle number that day?

A. I think it was 448, but I can't be sure.

Q. What was your partner's name?

A. Karen Lamanna. She was ALS. I was working overtime that day. I wasn't even supposed to be working. I was off that day. I came in for overtime and that was my first job.

Q. Okay.

A. (inaudible).

Q. Okay. Any thoughts or comments?

A. We were too close, we were too fucking close. It wasn't just EMS. It was the entire system. Too close. That's about my only opinion that, too damn close.

MR. RADENBERG: Okay, the time is now 0731. The interview is concluded. The interview date was October 31, 2001, not as previously stated August 31, 2001.




File No. 9110432
WORLD TRADE CENTER
TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER JOHN BUTLER
Interview Date: January 9, 2002
Transcribed by Elizabeth F. Santamaria 

BATTALION CHIEF CONGIUSTA: Today is January 8, 2002. The time is 12:12. This is Battalion Chief Frank Congiusta of the Safety Division of the New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview with Firefighter John Butler, Firefighter 1st, assigned to Engine 6 of the New York City Fire Department. We are at the engine office of Engine 6. This is regarding the events of September 11, 2001.
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  • Paul Beyer, 37
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  • Thomas Holohan, 36
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  • William R. Johnston, 31
A. On the morning of September 11, Engine 6 was taking up from Box 201 at approximately 8:40 and as I turned around by the Brooklyn Bridge I observed a blackened area in Tower number 1. The engine officer of 6 Engine, Lieutenant Thomas O'Hagan, transmitted a second alarm. We came back to quarters and I picked up two additional firemen who were waiting outside the quarters and we arrived at number 1 World Trade Center at approximately 8:47.

I immediately decided or I was gonna go into high pressure. I kept -- one of the firemen I picked up, who was an engine chauffeur, with me to assist in the stretch of the line across West Street because of the traffic, we hooked up into the  standpipe and I put Engine 6 into high pressure and I notified Battalion 1 that we were in high pressure. 

Members of Engine 6, at this time I don't know where they entered the building. I heard one communication regarding a Mayday situation which was transmitted by Marine 6, that they thought they had observed a major collapse of Tower number 2. While we were operating at this spot, we were there for approximately one hour before the second plane hit Tower number 2 and up until that time myself and the other member of Engine 6 were unaware that a plane had already hit Tower number 1. We were under the impression that there was some kind of a fire up there, an explosion. We thought it was like an air conditioning room within the building. At no time did I hear any communications about a plane hitting. 

When a second plane struck Tower number 2, I observed a large fire ball traveling from south to north. At that time I took the other fireman, Fireman Robert Emans, with me and we proceeded to run up West Street. We ran approximately one block and then we stopped to try to figure out what exactly had happened and some short time later Tower number 1, with the radio antenna on it, started to pancake. At that time we proceeded to run some more up West Street. A cloud that ensued from the building collapse, when it hit the ground picked up great momentum and it was right behind us all the way up West Street. We ran approximately five blocks until the cloud subsided.

We gathered our thoughts and at that time we proceeded over to 7 Engine on Duane Street to see if we could find out exactly what happened. Nobody had any additional information. We then proceeded from 7 Engine back to our own quarters on Beekman Street.

At that time, I was in communications with Deputy Chief Hill of the first division and he instructed me to be the liaison to Beekman Hospital to coordinate information about how many members were being treated, extent of the injury, company identification. I did that for approximately four hours until I was relieved by Chief Oehm of the first battalion.

At that point, we rejoined the members of Engine 6 up at the site on Broadway and Fulton Street. The only thing I can say about this whole incident, it was a complete surprise. Like I said earlier, at no time did we know that a plane had hit Tower number 1. We must -- I must have observed the tower approximately two minutes after the first plane had hit and at no time did we know that a plane had hit. I heard no communications to evacuate the building. I was in communications with members of Engine 6. They were on the 27th floor, proceeding upward. I heard communications from a squad company that informed them that it was an hour's climb to 30.

The only other thing I have to say is probably in the future modification should be made about truck companies responding into incidents like this. When they can observe from a distance the height of the building and the location of the fire, they know they are not going to use their ladders so they should just drop the members off in front of the building and reposition their rigs at a safe distance away from the building to avoid being hit with debris or falling bodies or as in this case, a total collapse of the building

BATTALION CHIEF CONGIUSTA: Thank you, John. It's 12:50 and this concludes the interview


File No. 9110381
WORLD TRADE CENTER
TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
ASSISTANT CHIEF MICHAEL BUTLER
Interview Date: December 21, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins 

CHIEF CANTY: Today is December 21st, 2001. The time is 1113 hours. This is Michael Canty, Battalion Chief, New York City Fire Department. I am conducting an interview with Assistant Chief Michael Butler, Bureau of Fire Prevention, regarding the events of September 11th, 2001.

Q. Please state your name.

A. Michael J. Butler.

Q. And you're assignment?

A. I'm the Chief of Fire Prevention.

Q. Where did you respond to the World Trade Center?  

A. I responded from home. I was on vacation.

Q. How did you become aware of the incident at the World Trade Center?

A. Via the television.

Q. En route to the World Trade Center, what did you see?

A. I saw the first tower come down when I was on the expressway prior to entering the Midtown Tunnel.

Q. That's the Long Island Expressway? 

A. Long Island Expressway.

Q. Where did you park your car when you arrived at the World Trade Center?

A. I parked my car on Warren Street and West, on Warren Street facing east.

Q. On arrival did any civilian report anything to you?

A. No. A lot of people running.

Q. To whom did you first report to and where?

A. For lack of a better word, I reported to Chief Cruthers someplace on West Street shortly after the second tower came down.

Q. Were you given any specific assignment?

A. Chief Cruthers ordered me to assemble a staging area -- actually at that time it was called the operations post -- at Chambers and West Street.

Q. You never entered any building prior to the collapses; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Did you contact anyone in the buildings prior to the collapse of the buildings?

A. Negative. I did not.

Q. You previously stated that you were on the Long Island Expressway when the first tower collapsed. What was your location at the time of the second tower collapse?

A. I was on West Street approximately two blocks north, probably at the interaction of Murray and West.

Q. Were you in your vehicle?

A. No. I was walking.

Q. Where did you go?

A. There was a chief's car, a GMC battalion chief's car in that interaction. As the enveloping dust cloud reached me or prior to reaching me, I ran behind that chief's car with a small group young firefighters. It was a truck company, and it was a single digit. But I don't know who they were.

Q. Did you remove any injured civilians or firefighters prior to or following any of these collapses? 

A. From the site? No. I probably assisted people as they were coming in to the operations post that I initially started to establish at West and Chambers. 

Q. Was that more in a supervisory capacity?

A. Yes.

Q. Were these people seriously injured or were they walking? 

A. No, this was mostly dazed, disoriented firefighters and civilians. 

Q. Consider your handy talking communications for a moment. When you arrived -- what information do you have concerning handy talking communications at the World Trade Center?

A. I have no information on communications of handy talky within the building. When I took my position on West and Chambers, trying to make contact from West and Chambers via my handy talky with anyone in and around the Trade Center did not happen. And I know my handy talky was charged.

Q. Did you hear any radio traffic on the handy talky at that time? 

A. No, there was no radio traffic, and there was no radio traffic on the air, the department radio, either. It was dead silent.

Q. This was following the second collapse?

A. This was following the second collapse. 

Q. Which channels did you operate on, if you remember?

A. The universal channel, handy talky 1.

Q. Were you notified to switch to any other channels?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Given the current known status of any missing or deceased members, did you have any visual or verbal contact with any of these members on September 11th?

A. No, none whatsoever. 

Q. Is there anything else that you would like to add to this interview as far as information concerning the events of September 11th?

A. No.

CHIEF CANTY: Thank you very much for your time, Chief. It is now 11:30 on December 21st, 2001. This concludes the interview. It was an interview with Assistant Chief Michael Butler, Bureau of Fire Prevention, conducted by Battalion Chief Michael Canty, Bureau of Operations.



File No. 9110500
WORLD TRADE CENTER
TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL BYRNE
Interview Date: January 21, 2002
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins 

CHIEF KENAHAN: Today's date is January 21st, 2002. The time is 1:48 p.m. This is Battalion Chief Dennis Kenahan of the Safety Battalion of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview with Firefighter Mike Byrne from -- What company?

FIREFIGHTER BYRNE: Engine 21.

CHIEF KENAHAN: -- Engine 21 in the quarters of -- 

FIREFIGHTER BYRNE: Engine 16.

CHIEF KENAHAN: -- Engine 16.

Q. Mike, just tell us the events as you recall them from September 11th.

A. We got the ticket after the second plane hit. We went down and parked on Church and Vesey off from the north tower under that pedestrian walkway. We went into the tower, we were in the lobby a couple minutes. There was only one chief there. We really had no direction what to do.
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Capt. William Francis Burke, Jr., 46
Captain Burke decided we would either go up on our own or wait for someone. We went up, started our way up. We went to the bank of  elevators. We pulled a lady out of the bank, one of the banks. We used a rabbit tool. Most of the banks were blown off. The doors were charred and dismembered, some of them.

Like I said, we were in the lobby for a while. There were jumpers, a lot of jumpers. A lot of companies coming in and out.

We decided to take an elevator up. 13 Truck took us up. I'm assuming it was a low riser. It was one of the only elevators that were clear, and it looked like it was working. 13 took us up to -- first they took a couple guys from my company up. Then I went up with another guy, came back down and got us, went up to the 24th floor. The whole company was there.

We walked up three more flights to the 27th floor. I don't know the time we were up there for, but however long we were up there, that's when the other building came down. We didn't know it at the time. The whole building shook. We hit the floor. Guys were saying, "Pop the door. Pop the door. Pop the door." It stopped. No smoke, no nothing. We thought something was coming down the hallway, maybe.

Again, I don't know the time frame from that time that elapsed. We got a report maybe 69th floor, 64th floor, partial collapse. After that -- there was one chief, I believe, up there. I'm not sure. He told us to start our way down, make your way down, everybody out.

Since I didn't hear that on the radio. I just heard it from -- start your way down. We were there with Captain Billy Burke, who we lost. We're like, "Let's go, Cap. We're all out." He said, "Start your way down. Make your way down. We'll all meet at the rig." Again, we're like let's go. He said, "Start your way down. We'll all meet at the rig."

I had a radio. We started our way down I believe it was the B staircase. I'm not sure. It could have been A. I talked to him three times on the way down, once in the stairwell, once on the 19th floor as we were switching over from the B to the A or the A to the B. Again, I'm not sure. I spoke to him once in the lobby.

It was the same thing all the time, meet at the rig, meet at the rig. 

Q. Did he say he was on his way down?

A. I didn't even get that, no. We still had no idea the other building came down. On the way down, like you said, people we saw, we saw guys from 8 Engine. These guys from my battalion that I knew. I saw them on the 8th floor. I saw guys, like you said, you want to know guys names that were coming in. I saw guys coming in there. 
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Robert Parro, 35
Q. That were lost?

A. I saw a guy from this house, Lieutenant -- I forget his name. It's on the wall. Yeah, we got out into the street. It was clear. I didn't even know what happened until I was in the street about a minute. We were walking north.

Q. You were on West Street? 

A. We went north on West over the overpass. There were thee of us now walked out. We walked out with 65 Engine we were just looking around. I was basically dazed, what the hell happened, what the hell happened, what the hell happened. Did the building come down? As you're saying that, the other one started coming down. 

I just ran up West Street, still going north. Other guys from my company ran across the street. You ran and it caught up to you, hit the floor and just waited and covered with shit.

That's about it.

Q. You can't remember anybody else whose name that you saw in the building that's missing; right?

A. Rob Parro. They found his body. He was with Freddie Ill. Three guys in the lobby, Denis Germain, Dennis Mulligan and George Dipasquale, all from 2 Truck. I saw them in the lobby.
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  • George DiPasquale, 33
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  • Denis P. Germain, 33
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  • Dennis Michael Mulligan, 32
One of our guys, as we were walking down the stairs, went back to get the captain again, and he started helping a guy from 13 Truck, the only guy from 13 Truck that made it out. They carried a civilian down.
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  • Capt. Walter G. Hynes, 46
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  • Thomas Hetzel, 33
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  • Dennis McHugh, 34
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  • Thomas E. Sabella, 44
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  • Gregory Stajk, 46
Those guys from 13 took us up. I remember seeing 44 Engine in the lobby. I guess they came together. It could have been 22. I saw -- I forget his name, Lieutenant --

Q. Have they found his body?

A. No, I'm trying to think of it. I'm sorry.

Q. That's okay.

A. He's on the wall there too. Kenny Phelan. That's the lieutenant. I saw him in the lobby. He was covering for a day. He just got made.[Kenny Phelan was caught in the collapse with 3 members of Engine 217,may they all rest in peace DC] 
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  • Lt. Kenneth Phelan, 41
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  • Steven Coakley, 36
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  • Philip T. Hayes, 67
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  • Neil Joseph Leavy, 34
Q. Okay. If that's it, thank you, Mike. CHIEF KENAHAN: The time now is 1:54, and this concludes the interview. 



File No. 9110266
WORLD TRADE CENTER
TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FIREFIGHTER ROBERT BYRNE
Interview Date: December 7, 2001
Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins  

CHIEF KEMLY: Today's date is December 7th, 2001. The time is 1645 hours. This is Battalion Chief Ronald Kemly of the New York City Fire Department. I'm conducting an interview with the following individual: Firefighter 6th grade Robert Byrne, assigned to Engine Company 24 of the Fire Department of the City of New York. 

The interview is taking place at the quarters of Engine 24, in the company office, regarding the events of September 11th, 2001.

Q. Fireman Byrne, would you please tell me what happened on September 11th.

A. September 11th I arrived for work early to do my probationary firefighter duties so I was square with everything. When we got the call to go, I was able to -- I had to beg the nozzle man to let me take up on him, which I did. The call came in around 8:46, so we responded immediately. So I had the knob.

En route to the World Trade Center, it was myself as the nozzle man, Marcel Claes was the backup, Dan Sterling was the doorman, and Rich Billy had control, Lieutenant Hanson was my officer and John Ottrando was our chauffeur.

While going to the Trade Center, I'm really doing my size-up and saying, oh, my God, there's like ten floors missing. Everything is blowing out fire. I remember looking how high it is and saying, oh, my God, how are we going to get up there with all of our equipment.

We parked on, I'm pretty sure it was the West Side Highway by Vesey. I'm almost sure it was over in that area. I remember John parked the rig. We headed to the north tower at that time.

When we were going there, I remember seeing debris and whatnot falling. When we got to the staging area inside the lobby, I remember seeing other companies. I remember vividly seeing it looked like the core elevators of the building were blown apart as if a giant had punched through tinfoil.

I remember seeing some bodies. I remember looking out into the courtyard and seeing some mutilated bodies. Debris was everywhere. I remember we were just waiting for our assignment. 

From there we headed up, I believe it was behind Ladder 20, and we headed up to the staircase A. We got as far as, I'd say, the 13th floor initially. We had to take our first blow because we were carrying a lot of equipment. 
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  • Capt. John R. Fischer, 46
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  • John Patrick Burnside, 36
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  • James Michael Gray, 34
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  • Sean S. Hanley, 35
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  • David Laforge, 50
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  • Robert Thomas Linnane, 33
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  • Robert D. McMahon[B.R], 35
There were civilians jamming the staircase. There was water flowing down the staircase; I remember that. People saying, "Thank you, guys." I remember another unit behind us. I don't remember what company they were with. One of the senior guys was saying basically, "You're almost there, folks. You're almost there." Then I started joking around with the people. I said, "Yeah, all this for 32 grand." People thought it was funny. That was my way of trying to make them feel better, tell them a joke.

On the 13th floor we took a break. I remember hearing radio calls then, by other units, some maydays, members down with chest pains. I don't know what floors they were on.

I kept going up. I remember seeing people coming down in the stairs. We had to make way for a couple of people that had their skin hanging off their bodies, basically. They were pretty burnt up.

I don't remember what floor it was, but we were with a woman who had an asthma attack and a man was helping her down. We were trying to help her. We didn't have too much CFR stuff with us, but some EMT I guess it was -- popped out of nowhere. He had an oxygen tank with no proper rebreather mask, but he was able to give her a little air.

To make a long story short, she was able to get out because she decided not to stay and wait for EMS to help her out. She just got out. She got out of the building.

It was around the 29th floor, I think it was, that we decided to take some of our gear off in order to make it up to the 80th floor. Then we moved up to I think it was the 29th floor. I don't remember what other units were up there. Like I was saying, we were going to take some gear off, leave a few of the hose lengths. We carried a lot of gear up, and it was almost impossible to make it up that high anyway.

That's where we left Rich Billy to be communications relay, basically, because communications were pretty poor in the staircase. Personally I didn't hear a lot of radio transmissions.

I remember going to I believe it was the 35th floor we got to, and that's where we ran into 5 Truck, our guys. They saw us. We came into the hallway, and we were pooped. They came over and offered us water. We took a blow there for a little bit.

I remember somebody had gotten into a water dispenser, and we took Poland Spring bottles. I think it was Andy Brunn that got into it. We were giving them out to civilians on their way down. 
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  • Lt. Vincent Francis Giammona, 40
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  • Lt. Michael Warchola, 51
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  • Louis Arena, 32
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  • Andrew Brunn, 28
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  • Thomas Hannafin, 36
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  • Paul Hanlon Keating, 38
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  • John A. Santore, 49
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  • Gregory Thomas Saucedo, 31
 I remember later on we went up to -- I don't know if it was still on the 35th floor and that's when we all dove into the staircase because basically the whole tower shook and we heard the noise of something going on. We didn't know what it was. 

What it was was the south tower collapsing. We didn't know. Finally we got some sort of transmission on the radio saying there was a collapse on the 60th floor. Meanwhile the south tower happened to come down.

We were still on a rest period. We started going back. We were supposed to meet up with another unit; I don't remember who it was. We made it as far as, I believe it was the 37th floor, and I believe it was a chief from the 11th Battalion that popped up on the staircase. His exact words were "Drop everything and get out." We looked to Lieutenant Hanson, and he said, "Drop everything and get out." That's when we basically evacuated.
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Chief John M. Paolillo, 51
I remember going up the stairs took us over the hour. Getting down the stairs took maybe ten minutes, not even. By that time the staircase was empty. The same staircase we took up was empty on the way down

We got as far as I believe the 10th floor, 10th or 15th -- I'm not a hundred percent sure -- and we knew something was bad at that time anyway.

There was a radio transmission for -- they needed help. Lieutenant Hanson told me to  get out because my -- when the chief told me to drop everything, because I'm a proby, I followed orders to the T, I guess, and I dropped everything, except for my bunker gear, of course. But I dropped my Scott tank and everything. When I got down to that floor, he said, "All right, Byrne, you don't have your face piece. Just get out of the building."

Basically, I got as far as the third floor, where I ran into -- it looked like there was a collapse down there. It was pretty bad. It was all smoky and dusty. I thought it was smoke, and I got a little nervous. I was at the point where I was going to go up and get another Scott tank, but I realized it wasn't smoke.

That's when I saw it was a collapse. It looked like a collapse; either that or the collapse and just closed up the staircase, I think it was the second floor, third or second floor, whatever it was. That's where I ran into a Port Authority cop, and he directed me out.

It was a good thing I had my flashlight on still, because it was pitch-black. I followed a pitch-black hallway, and that's where I ran  into a group of civilians. When we got to the point, I think it was the lobby, and that's where we had -- we had a little overhead protection there, and then we had to run across to the next overhead protection it was about a 75 foot run. There were jumpers and debris that was falling. We had to pretty much take our chance when we made the run.

Before that I remember running into another guy in my probationary class, Jimmy Brown. He was with 10-10. He was saying he doesn't know where everybody is. To make a long story short with Jimmy Brown, he ended up living but he got buried up to his shoulders. They had to dig him out before he suffocated.

I remember making the mad dash, praying I wasn't going to get hit. I took a peek up. I saw it looked clear to me, and I ran. I was under another bit of overhead protection, but it wasn't really that good a protection because the aluminum was just coming down from that building. It was just going through that thick plate glass like a hot knife through butter. There were bodies littering the courtyard. Everything was  on fire.

So I was by myself with 20 civilians, I guess. I was the only fireman. The whole line stopped because we had to stay in a single column to keep the overhead protection. I didn't understand why the column stopped. I was worried. I was like, why is this thing stopping?

So I went around to the front, and that's when I found this big lady and she couldn't walk. Basically I was like, "Lady, you've got to get up. You're going to kill everybody." She said, "No, just leave me here." So we couldn't do that of course. I tried to help carry her, but I was just so exhausted. She wouldn't give any effort whatsoever to get up. I told her I have to go get a straight board.

Right around the corner of the building, maybe 20 feet, 30 feet, I found a couple of ESU cops. With them two and myself, we were able to get her as far as Church and Vesey on the courtyard still. We're not in the street level; we're still right next to the building.

I think there was another cop that came over with a straight board. We strapped her in, we took her down the stairs, and that's when the building came down. We were about 150 feet away when the building came down.

I remember when the building came down I couldn't believe it, because I didn't even know the other one came down yet, because we were never told. We were told it was a collapse above the 60th floor.

What's that, Chief? I'm sorry. 

All of a sudden the lady was able to get up and walk fine. That was good. At least she lived. Because I didn't have a mask, I inhaled quite a bit of that stuff. It went in my eyes, everything.

I remember walking into, I think it was towards Vesey, and I saw somebody in the middle of the street and said, "Who are you? "I don't know if I said, "Who are you?" I just remember looking. I kept on walking towards the only person I saw. It turned out to be Lieutenant Hanson. He barely got out too.

Together him and I were able to walk a block or half a block through all that debris. The debris was burning. We got help from a group of maintenance guys in a building. They were able to wash our faces for us with a five gallon jug. From there we got over to 7 and 1 somehow.

That's about it.

Q. Okay. Thank you. I have some questions just to clarify stuff.

A. Sure.

Q. That was a good job there. The first question, you said there were other companies that you saw on the way, but you don't remember their numbers? When you got to Vesey and West, you started walking. These other companies, you didn't take any notice?  
A. When I was going in or out?

Q. Going in, walking towards the north tower. You reported to the lobby command post, probably, but do you know who the chief was at the lobby command post?

A. Yeah, I remember seeing Chief Hayden.

Q. All right, Chief Hayden. 

A. Because I remember there was a firefighter from this house. I think it was 5 Truck. I remember seeing him around here before that, and he was setting up the table, the command table they use. I remember him knocking it down. That's what drew my attention to see Chief Hayden.

Q. All right. So that was the aide probably of the division.

A. Right.

Q. So that was Division 1 was there already. But you didn't see any other companies like in the lobby, the numbers, any numbers?

A. I remember seeing 5 Truck too.

Q. You don't know where he directed him to?

A. No.

Q. You went up the stairs with Ladder 20?

A. Yes. They were leading us.

Q. No other companies came down or up while you were working that staircase?

A. We were passing companies.

Q. But you didn't take notice of their numbers?

A. I didn't take notice. It was my first job, basically.

Q. Okay. You said you didn't hear much on the radio. Did you have a radio?

A. I did not, but I was close enough to listen.

Q. That's fine. The 11th Battalion, the chief you saw, you said you believe it was the 11th?

A. Right.

Q. Did you see anybody with him? Was his aide with him?

A. No, he was by himself.

Q. He was by himself. All right. And you met 5 Truck on, what did you say, the 35th?

A. The 35th floor, I believe it was.

Q. When you were coming down, did you see any other Fire Department units or any apparatus when you came out?

A. When I came out there was an engine. I forgot the number.

Q. It was probably crushed; right?

A. No.

Q. It was in good shape?

A. It was in good shape after the building collapsed.

Q. You came out of the lobby on the Church Street side. Is that what you said? I believe you said that.

A. Yeah, either that or I came out another way. I had to go around the building.

Q. That's when you saw the engine, when you first came out?

A. After the building came down I saw the engine, because I went to look for a Scott tank. 

Q. When you saw this fellow Jim Brown, was he in the lobby? Outside?

A. I'm pretty sure he was in the lobby. I thought he was just right outside the lobby. Just before the mad dash. There was something else I missed, I wanted to tell.

Q. Okay. If you can remember something else, go ahead. There's no rush.

A. I just forgot it.

Q. There's no rush.

A. Sorry. Thinking about this bugs you out.

Q. No, we're just trying to find out if you saw the units --

A. Oh, okay, I remember now. I remember exactly. I remember 5 Truck telling us that they got up staircase B because it was empty of civilians, because we were telling them how we were packed with civilians. They told us to take B with them, and we ended up just staying in A. That is what I remembered.

Q. Okay. If there's nothing else, that concludes the interview. Thank you very much.

A. Thank you, Chief. 

Q. Okay.

To be continued...

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