EXECUTIVE SESSION
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,
JOINT WITH THE
COMMITTEE
ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT
REFORM,
U.S. HOUSE
OF REPRESENTATIVES,
WASHINGTON, D.C.
INTERVIEW OF:
JAMES COMEY
Monday, December 17, 2018
Washington, D.C.
The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141,
Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:13 a.m.
Members Present: Representatives Goodlatte, Jordan, Gowdy,
Ratcliffe, Johnson of Georgia, Meadows, Cummings, and Clay.
Chairman Goodlatte. All right. We'll go on the record.
This is the continuation of the transcribed interview of Mr. James
Comey.
And, Mr. Comey, do you understand that the questions you were
asked at the beginning of the first day of interviews all still
apply and that you are under oath?
Mr. Comey. Yes, sir. This is not under oath, but I have an
obligation to tell the truth.
Chairman Goodlatte. Correct.
And we will, as we did with the first one, make every effort
to have the transcription available tomorrow, and we'll get it out
as quickly as we possibly can.
Let's go around the room and have everyone here introduce
themselves. And I'm Bob Goodlatte, Member of Congress from
Virginia.
Mr. Gowdy. Trey Gowdy, South Carolina.
Mr. Ratcliffe. John Ratcliffe, Texas.
Mr. Meadows. Mark Meadows, North Carolina.
Mr. Jordan. Jim Jordan, Ohio.
Chairman Goodlatte. All right. Let's get staff.
Ms. Shen. Valerie Shen, House Oversight, Democrats.
Mr. Hiller. Aaron Hiller, House Judiciary, Democrats.
Ms. Hariharan. Arya Hariharan, House Judiciary, Democrats.
Ms. Sachsman Grooms. Susanne Sachsman Grooms, House
Oversight, Democrats.
Mr. [ ]. [ ], FBI.
Mr. Ventura. Christopher Ventura, House Judiciary,
Republicans.
Mr. Buddharaju. Anudeep Buddharaju, House Oversight,
majority.
Mr. Castor. Steve Castor, OGR, majority.
Mr. Brebbia. Sean Brebbia, House Oversight, majority.
Ms. Green. Meghan Green, House Oversight, majority.
Mr. [ ]. [ ], FBI.
Ms. Doocy. Mary Doocy, Rep. Meadows.
Ms. Husband. Shelly Husband, House Judiciary, minority.
Mr. Breitenbach. Ryan Breitenbach, House Judiciary,
majority.
Mr. Baker. Arthur Baker, House Judiciary, Republicans.
Mr. Somers. Zachary Somers, House Judiciary, Republicans.
Mr. [ ]. [ ], FBI.
Mr. [ ]. [ ], FBI OGC.
Mr. Kelley. David Kelley, Dechert LLP, on behalf of
Mr. Comey.
Chairman Goodlatte. All right. We'll turn it to Mr. Gowdy.
Mr. Gowdy. Good morning, Director Comey.
I want to direct your attention to a February 8th memo from
you. Do you have those memos in front of you? And if not, we'll
get you a copy.
Mr. Comey. Thank you.
Mr. Gowdy. I believe that memo starts, "I went to the
White House today for a 4 p.m. meet and greet," if that helps you.
Mr. Comey. I see it, yeah. I have it in front of me.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. Will you flip to the next page? Do
you see where the first paragraph, first sentence: "He then asked
me if this was a 'private conversation'"?
Mr. Comey. I see that.
Mr. Gowdy. And do you see, "I replied it was"?
Mr. Comey. I see that, yes.
Mr. Gowdy. What did you mean by "it was"?
Mr. Comey. That the two of us were speaking together alone,
that there was nobody else participating in the conversation.
Mr. Gowdy. So by "private" you meant that there was nobody
else in the room?
Mr. Comey. I think that's what he was asking and that's what
I was replying, as best I recall, that it was just the two of us
in the room, it wasn't being recorded, there was nobody else
involved in the conversation.
Mr. Gowdy. So you didn't take "private" to mean
confidential, that this is just between us?
Mr. Comey. That's a good question. Let me think about it
for a second.
I think I took it as, is this just the two of us in this
conversation?
Mr. Gowdy. But that would've been readily apparent to both of y'all, that you were the only two in the room, wouldn't it?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I guess that's right. That's why I'm
hesitating. But, yeah, I think that's what I meant when I said
this. He asked if it was a private conversation, which I took to
mean is it the two of us having this conversation. I said, yes,
that it was.
Mr. Gowdy. So you did not take from that any implicit
confidentiality, that this is just between us?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I don't think so. I'm hesitating because
it's possible, but I don't think so.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, it strikes me the options are that it was
private and that you were the only two in the room, which both of
you already knew, which begs the question why he had to say it and
you had to agree to it, or "private" means just between us.
Mr. Comey. Yeah, that would ask me -- you're asking me to
try to tell you what was in his head. I don't know.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, shortly after that meeting concluded, did
you memorialize that conversation?
Mr. Comey. I did.
Mr. Gowdy. And to whom, if anyone, did you share or
distribute the memo?
Mr. Comey. Sometime shortly after I wrote it, I shared it
with the senior leadership team of the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. Pardon me. Could you say that again?
Mr. Comey. Shortly after I wrote it -- I'm looking if I put a time on it. Shortly after I wrote it, I shared it with the
senior leadership team of the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. Would that include Andy McCabe, Jim Baker, and
Jim Rybicki?
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. Anyone else?
Mr. Comey. Possibly the head of the National Security Branch
at the FBI, possibly the head of the Counterintelligence Division
of the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. When President Obama gave his "60 Minutes"
interview in October of 2015 and remarked, in the midst of your
Clinton investigation, that Clinton merely committed a mistake and
lacked the intent to harm national security, did you address that
with him personally?
Mr. Comey. I did not.
Mr. Gowdy. Did you send word through Attorney General
Loretta Lynch that it is not appropriate for the head of the
executive branch to comment on a pending investigation?
Mr. Comey. I did not.
Mr. Gowdy. How did you communicate to the White House that
commenting on an ongoing investigation is not appropriate?
Mr. Comey. I don't recall that I did in connection with that
statement by the President.[Well that is totally screwed up,similar to what Nixon did to Manson with the newspaper headline during that trial D.C]
Mr. Gowdy. President Obama said of her email arrangement, "I
don't think it posed a national security problem." How would he have known that at the time?
Mr. Comey. I can't answer that question.
Mr. Gowdy. He also said, "This is not a situation in which
America's national security was endangered." How would he have
known that at the time?
Mr. Comey. Same answer. I can't answer that for him.
Mr. Gowdy. Did President Obama know that his emails were
among those found in her emails?
Mr. Comey. I can't answer that.
Mr. Gowdy. Do you know when the President learned that some
of his emails were among those found in her emails?
Mr. Comey. I can't answer that, and I don't know.
Mr. Gowdy. You never had a conversation with him about it?
Mr. Comey. No.
Mr. Gowdy. Never directed anyone at the Bureau to tell him?
Mr. Comey. No.
Mr. Gowdy. About David Petraeus, President Obama said, "I
have no evidence at this point, from what I've seen, that
classified information was disclosed that in any way would have a
negative impact on our national security."
Do you know what evidence he would've seen at that point?
Mr. Comey. I don't. And I don't remember him saying that
about Petraeus.
Mr. Gowdy. Did you brief the President on the Petraeus
investigation?
Mr. Comey. No.
Mr. Gowdy. Did anyone at the FBI?
Mr. Comey. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Gowdy. President Obama said Mrs. Clinton had not tried
to, quote, "hide anything or squirrel away information." Do you
know how he knew that?
Mr. Comey. I don't.
Mr. Gowdy. In fact, were all of her emails located?
Mr. Comey. You have to clarify that, Mr. Gowdy. "All of her
emails," meaning what?
Mr. Gowdy. Any one that she would have generated during the
time period that she was Secretary of State that possibly could've
involved public record.
Mr. Comey. I don't know.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, were any destroyed?
Mr. Comey. Yes, by her --
Mr. Gowdy. Then, if they were destroyed, they weren't
located. I'm not trying to ask you a trick question. If they
were destroyed, they weren't located.
Mr. Comey. Well, that's one of the reasons I'm hesitating,
is there were emails that, by her account, were destroyed. We
found a lot of emails, including after late October. Whether
those that we found were the same as that which had been destroyed
is impossible to answer.
Mr. Gowdy. When President Trump asked you to see your way to letting the Flynn matter go, was it just you and him in the room?
Mr. Comey. Before I answer that, sir, my understanding is
you were going to ask questions about decisions made in 2016, and
that conversation occurred in February of 2017.
Mr. Gowdy. Director Comey, I understand when it occurred.
We're looking at decisions made and not made in 2016 and 2017.
Mr. Comey. Okay.
Mr. Gowdy. So, when President Trump asked you to see your
way clear to letting the Flynn matter go, was it just you and him
in the room?
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. So no one at the FBI knew, except you, that that
comment had been made.
Mr. Comey. At the time it was made, correct.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. You decided to share it with others.
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Gowdy. Okay. So it was a conversation that only
you -- it was a comment only you heard. I think your previous
testimony was it had --
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Comey. Sorry. Go ahead.
Mr. Gowdy. I think your previous testimony was it did not
impact any decisions you made or cause you to not make decisions.
Did I recall that correctly from your last time?
Mr. Comey. I think that's a fair summary of my testimony from a week or so ago.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. So you're the only one that heard it,
it had no impact on you, and you chose to share it.
Mr. Comey. Those three things are true. Implicit in your
question is some connection among the three. I'm just agreeing
those three things are true.
Mr. Gowdy. Okay.
Mr. Comey. It didn't have an impact on the investigation. I
heard it -- I was the only one in the room besides the President.
And I briefed the senior leadership team of the FBI.
Mr. Gowdy. What I'm trying to do, Director Comey, is
contrast -- well, we'll do it this way. I'll ask you, when any of
the comments were uttered by President Obama on either of the
investigations we just went over, Petraeus or Hillary Clinton,
they were public comments. Did you also gather your senior staff
around to make sure that those comments did not impact any
decisions they made?
Mr. Comey. I don't recall ever gathering them to
discuss -- let me back up for a second. I don't recall talking to
my senior staff about whether President Obama was going to have an
impact on our investigations. I don't.
Mr. Gowdy. Can you understand my curiosity why you would
publish a private comment to make sure it did not impact them but
not take up a public comment to make sure it did not impact them?
Mr. Kelley. Is that a question?
Mr. Gowdy. Yes.
Mr. Comey. The public comments, because they were widely
broadcast, were ones that were apparent to the senior leadership
team of the FBI. If I didn't tell the senior leadership team of
the FBI about my conversation with President Trump, they wouldn't
otherwise know and couldn't help me figure out what to do with
what was potential obstruction of justice.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. Well, let's get into that then.
After he asked you if it was a private conversation and you
said it was, what did he ask you about? What was his specific
question? Do you recall?
Mr. Comey. The "he" you're talking about is Reince Priebus?
We're back on the February 8th --
Mr. Gowdy. Back to the February 8 memo. Right after he said
is this a private conversation and you said it was, what was the
next issue he broached with you?
Mr. Comey. He said he wanted -- I'm reading from the top of
my own memo, second page. He said he wanted to ask me a question
and I could decide whether it was appropriate to answer. He then
asked, do you have a FISA order on Mike Flynn?
Mr. Gowdy. All right. And did you answer it, or did you
tell him it was inappropriate for him to ask?
Mr. Comey. In a way, both. I paused and said that I would
answer here but this illustrated the kind of question that had to
be asked and answered through established channels. And then I answered his question.
Mr. Gowdy. So it is possible that a question be properly
asked but it needs to go a different route. And I assume by that
you meant White House Counsel needs to ask the Attorney General
and then it filtered down to you?
Mr. Comey. I'm sorry. I'm not following your question,
Mr. Gowdy.
Mr. Gowdy. I'm assuming that there is a category of
questions that it is permissible or okay to ask but it has to be
asked in a different route, through a different mechanism.
Mr. Comey. In general, yes, that there are norms and
traditions and policies that guide communications. And I was
trying to help him understand some of those here.
Mr. Gowdy. Does the President have the ability to end an
investigation?
Mr. Comey. That's a legal question, Mr. Gowdy, I don't think
I'm qualified to answer.
Mr. Gowdy. Oh, Director Comey, you've had a distinguished
career in the Southern District of New York, you've worked for the
Department of Justice, you've headed the world's premier law
enforcement agency. You're plenty a good enough lawyer to take a
crack at whether or not the Chief Executive can end an
investigation.
Let me do it this way. If you don't feel comfortable, what
does the word "plenary" mean?
Mr. Comey. What does the word "plenary" mean?
Mr. Gowdy. "Plenary." To say the pardon powers are plenary,
what does it mean?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I'm not expert enough to give you an expert
answer on that. And as to your -- go ahead.
Mr. Gowdy. Do you disagree with the following?
"The Presidential pardon power extends to every offense known
to the law and may be exercised at any time after its commission,
either before legal proceedings are taken or during their pendency
or after conviction and judgment."
Do you take exception to what I just read?
Mr. Comey. I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment
on what you just read.
Mr. Gowdy. Director Comey, have you ever discussed the
President's conduct in terms of either obstruction of justice or
potential obstruction of justice? In any interview, have you ever
discussed his comments through that lens, through that prism?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I need you to focus the question,
obviously. Do you mean when I was FBI Director did I speak to the
FBI leadership team?
Mr. Gowdy. I mean any interviews in the last couple of
weeks.
Mr. Comey. Oh, I've been asked many times do I think the
President was guilty of obstruction of justice.
Mr. Gowdy. And my question to you is, can a President end an investigation?
Mr. Comey. And I think that calls for a legal conclusion, a
constitutional legal judgment that I'm not qualified to make.
Mr. Gowdy. Does the President have the ability to end a
prosecution?
Mr. Comey. It's the same question, I think, so my answer is
the same.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, Director Comey, does the pardon power only
extend after a conviction?
Mr. Comey. I'm not expert enough to answer that question.
Mr. Gowdy. Was the President part of your Michael Flynn
investigation?
Mr. Comey. I don't know what you mean by that.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, when two agents went over to interview
Michael Flynn at the White House, was the -- we'll do it this way.
Why did they go interview Michael Flynn?
Mr. Comey. Because they were directed to.
Mr. Gowdy. I know. By you. For what purpose?
Mr. Comey. To see if they could, by interviewing Mr. Flynn,
gain an understanding about why the Vice President was making
statements that purported to repeat statements he had made that
were false.
Mr. Gowdy. You knew what the Vice President was saying was
false, right?
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Gowdy. Had Michael Flynn ever repeated that he had never
spoken to the Russian Ambassador or, if so, limited the scope of
conduct to something you knew not to be true?
Mr. Comey. I'm sorry, sir. I don't understand that
question.
Mr. Gowdy. Had Michael Flynn ever publicly said that he had
not talked to the Russian Ambassador or limited the scope of that
conversation in a way such that you knew to not be true?
Mr. Comey. I don't believe Mr. Flynn made any public
comments about his interactions with the Russians certainly before
the agents interviewed him on January 24th.
Mr. Gowdy. What is the Logan Act?
Mr. Comey. It's a criminal statute that, as I understand it,
in general, prohibits private citizens from engaging in
negotiations with foreign powers on behalf of the United States
Government.
Mr. Gowdy. How many times has it been prosecuted in our
country's jurisprudence?
Mr. Comey. I don't know. I have some recollection that
there were prosecutions 100 years ago or something like that, but
that's about all I recall.
Mr. Gowdy. Any successful prosecutions?
Mr. Comey. I don't know one way or the other.
Mr. Gowdy. So, again, I'm trying to understand. It is not
the FBI's job, unless I'm mistaken, to correct false statements that political figures say to one another. So why did you send
two Bureau agents to interview Michael Flynn?
Mr. Comey. Because one of the FBI's jobs is to understand
the efforts of foreign adversaries to influence, coerce, corrupt
the Government of the United States. So they were sent there as
part of that counterintelligence mission to try and understand why
it appeared to be the case that the National Security Advisor was
making false statements about his conversations with the Russians
to the Vice President of the United States.
Mr. Gowdy. Had Michael Flynn previously been under
investigation by the Bureau?
Mr. Comey. I can't answer that.
Mr. Gowdy. Why not?
Mr. Comey. Because I don't believe that the Bureau has ever
publicly confirmed what Americans were under investigation,
counterintelligence investigation, connected to the Trump
campaign.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, he's pled guilty, right? Hasn't been
sentenced yet, but he's pled guilty.
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. Pled to making a false statement.
Mr. Comey. I've seen that, yes.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. Didn't plead to conspiracy,
coordination, collusion with Russia.
Mr. Comey. Not to my understanding.
Mr. Gowdy. Right. Was Michael Flynn under investigation for
his ties with Russia at the time you sent the Bureau agents over
to interview him?
Mr. Comey. I think I'm obligated to give you the same
answer. I can't comment on that.
Mr. Gowdy. And the reason you can't comment is why?
Mr. Comey. Again, there are FBI lawyers here who will tell
me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the United States Government
has ever publicly confirmed what Americans were the subjects of
counterintelligence investigations prior to that date.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, you said four Americans. You've said that
before. Correct?
Mr. Comey. Sure. That fact is public.
Mr. Gowdy. Right. So it's four Americans. You just
testified that one of the Bureau's missions is to find out whether
or not people are working in concert with foreign nations?
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Gowdy. Is that why the agents went to interview Michael
Flynn, to find out whether or not he was working on behalf of the
Russian state?
Mr. Comey. I'd give you the same answer I gave before. The
agents went to interview Flynn to try and understand why the
National Security Advisor was making false statements to the Vice
President of the United States about his interactions with the
Russians during the transition.
Mr. Gowdy. What questions did you -- what two Bureau agents
did you send?
Mr. Comey. Only one of them has been identified publicly, so
I can do that. Peter Strzok was one of the two. The other was a
career counterintelligence agent.
Mr. Gowdy. And what questions did they ask related to
Flynn's relationship with Russia?
Mr. Comey. I don't know the answer to that.
Mr. Gowdy. The Bureau knew that Michael Flynn was not
telling the truth. You knew that before you sent the agents over
there, right?
Mr. Comey. No, I didn't know that.
Mr. Gowdy. What did you know?
Mr. Comey. I knew certain classified facts about the nature
of his interactions with the Russians. I knew that the Vice
President was making statements that he attributed to
conversations he'd had with Mr. Flynn that were starkly at odds
with those classified facts.
Mr. Gowdy. You had the option of going to the Vice President
and telling him that you knew for a fact what he was being told by
General Flynn was not correct. That was one option, wasn't it?
Mr. Comey. I'm not going to answer a hypothetical. We
didn't do that.
Mr. Gowdy. I know you didn't, Director Comey, but it's not
unfair to ask what your options were. If you're concerned that someone is lying to the Vice President, one of your options is to
go tell the Vice President, "Someone's lying to you."
Mr. Comey. Before interviewing the person who might be doing
the lying?
Mr. Gowdy. Sure.
Mr. Comey. Sure, I suppose that's an option. I don't think
it's one a reasonable investigator would take, but it's an option.
Mr. Gowdy. Did Mr. Flynn have the right to have counsel
present during that interview?
Mr. Comey. No.
Mr. Gowdy. What was the policy the Bureau followed with
other administrations if you wanted to interview an employee of
that administration?
Mr. Comey. I don't know that there was a policy. My
understanding was the normal practice was to coordinate an
interview through the White House Counsel's Office.
Mr. Gowdy. Recently -- and I want to make sure I get your
words right. Tell me if this fairly captures what you said in
response to a question.
Mr. Kelley. Do you have a page cite?
Mr. Gowdy. No. It's an interview he gave last week.
Mr. Kelley. Do you have a copy of it?
Mr. Gowdy. No, but I'm happy to -- why don't I ask him if he
recognizes it first, and if he wants a copy of it, I'm happy to
give him one.
Mr. Kelley. He usually needs it to read along, but go ahead.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, if he needs it, Mr. Kelley, I'll be happy
to give it to him. I'm not trying to trick him. But he said it,
and there's a chance he may remember it.
"Something we, I, probably wouldn't have done or maybe gotten
away with in a more organized investigation, a more organized
administration."
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I remember saying that.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. What did you mean by "gotten away
with"?
Mr. Comey. As I said, I don't think there were policies or
rules -- I could be wrong, but I don't think so -- in prior
administrations, but there were norms and practices, that, in a
more established environment, there would've been an expectation
that the FBI would coordinate the interview through White House
Counsel.
Mr. Gowdy. I understand that. I'm just kind of hung up on
the phrase "gotten away with."
Mr. Comey. Well, that there would've been -- that there
wouldn't have been an opportunity to call Mr. Flynn and ask him to
sit and talk to him, that, in an administration where the rhythm
of the context between the FBI and the White House was more
established, there would've been a strong expectation that we
coordinate it through White House Counsel instead of calling the
National Security Advisor directly. That's what I meant by it.
Again, I'd never worked in a transition time before, but my
understanding was that, in a more established administrative
environment, you wouldn't get away with just calling the witness
and saying, "Can we come and talk to you?"
Mr. Gowdy. And you followed the protocol with Presidents
Bush and President Obama?
Mr. Comey. I don't remember having occasion like this with
either of those Presidents.
Mr. Gowdy. Why not advise General Flynn of the consequences
of making false statements to the FBI?
Mr. Comey. Two reasons, really.
First, the Deputy Director called him, told him what the
subject matter was, told him he was welcome to have a
representative from White House Counsel there. So he knew what he
was going to be asked about. He was an extraordinarily
experienced person and so reasonably should be assumed to
understand you can't lie to the FBI.
Second, it's not protocol. The FBI does not do that in non custodial interviews.
And, third, you want to find out what the witness will say to
you before you heat up an interview by raising the prospect that
the witness might be lying to you.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. So you knew what he said before you
interviewed him.
Mr. Comey. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Gowdy. You knew exactly what General Flynn had said to
the Russian Ambassador before you interviewed him.
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. Exactly what was said.
Mr. Comey. Well, I'm only hesitating because I don't know
what I don't know, but we understood clearly the nature and extent
of a variety of communications, telephonic, between Mr. Flynn and
the Russian Ambassador.
I'm only hesitating because, if there were other
communications, other phones, other means of communication, we
wouldn't know that. But we had clear transcripts of the
conversations that we had.
Mr. Gowdy. So if there were calls between Flynn and the
Russian Ambassador that were missed, I don't think anybody expects
you to know the contents of those calls. But the call in
question, you knew exactly what was said.
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. And General Flynn asked specifically whether or
not he needed an attorney present, and what was the FBI's
response?
Mr. Comey. I don't remember that he asked that question. I
believe the Deputy Director volunteered to him that you are
welcome to have somebody present from the White House Counsel's
Office. And I think he said, in substance, there'd be no need for
that.
Mr. Gowdy. And you don't think that's because Flynn asked;
you think that's because McCabe just volunteered? "You can have
someone, but it will slow up the process."
Mr. Comey. My recollection could be wrong, of course, but my
recollection is that the Deputy Director offered it to him and did
not add that bit about slowing the process, but said, "If you wish
to, you can have somebody there from the White House Counsel's
Office."
Mr. Gowdy. All right. So we have two agents that you
personally sent to interview General Flynn. You knew exactly what
he had said. There was no counsel present. The Bureau did not go
through White House Counsel when he was not advised ahead of time
of the consequences of making a false statement to the FBI.
Mr. Comey. I'm hesitating, Mr. Gowdy, just because it's a
question with a bunch of different pieces. I have to take issue
with one at the beginning. It may seem a small thing, but I
didn't personally send the agents. I didn't know what agents
would go. I wanted Flynn interviewed as soon as possible.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, Director Comey, I'm trying to come to grips
with what this three-word sentence means: "I sent them." What
does that sentence mean to you when it's uttered by you?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, it means I wanted Flynn interviewed, which
is why agents went and interviewed him at the White House. I took
your question to mean that I knew the identity of the agents who
were going to go. I didn't want to leave you with that impression.
The agents went to interview Flynn because I said I want
Flynn interviewed, I want him interviewed as soon as possible.
Mr. Gowdy. I'd be shocked if you handpicked the agents,
Director Comey. My point was you sent them.
You knew that there was a different protocol with the Bush
and the Obama administration's. You had the option of calling Don
McGahn, but you decided not to do so. Either Flynn asked whether
he should have a lawyer present or Andy McCabe told him it would
slow him down, one or the other. And he was not advised of the
consequences of making a false statement before he was
interviewed.
Is all of that accurate?
Mr. Comey. No, your question's not accurate.
Mr. Gowdy. What part is inaccurate?
Mr. Comey. Well, probably a bunch, but I'll take one.
Implicit in your question was your assertion that there were
two states of the world: either Flynn asked for a lawyer and was
told something or was told something else. Neither of those is
consistent with my recollection.
My recollection is the Deputy Director said, "If you wish to
have someone there from White House Counsel, you're welcome to."
I don't remember that he added "it'll slow down the process" or
anything like that.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, are you familiar with Andy McCabe's memo? Are you familiar with what he filed with the court?
Mr. Comey. Generally, yes. I haven't read it. I read press
accounts of it. [Oh wow this is the reason Trump wanted 'Russia' included in the wording of why Comey was Fired,Comey,Mueller and Clinton are the ones who were involved with 'Russia'D.C]...
Mr. Gowdy. Well, how about we get a copy of that for
Director Comey so we can be working off of the same piece of
paper.
While we're waiting on them to get you that document,
Director Comey, how about I take that phrase out and simply insert
that McCabe said, "If you have a lawyer present, we'll need to
involve the Department of Justice"? Do you recall that?
Mr. Comey. I don't. He could have, but I don't recall that as I sit here.
Mr. Gowdy. Jimmy, I'm going to let you go, so we don't have
to wait on this document to get here.
Mr. Jordan. Director, in the conversations that you'd had
between Mr. Flynn and the Russian Ambassador, was there anything
wrong in those conversations, anything said that was not
appropriate, anything wrong, anything that caused you to
be -- caused him to be under investigation just based on what he
said in those conversations?
Mr. Comey. I'm pausing, Mr. Jordan, because I don't -- I
guess I have two concerns. One is, I don't know whether the
conversations -- I think they're still classified, the contents of
those conversations. I haven't seen them in a long, long time, so
I don't think I can answer that question.
Mr. Jordan. To Mr. Gowdy's question, you asked the reason
you went to interview General Flynn was because statements made by
the Vice President contradicted what you knew that he had said
in -- he, Flynn -- had said in conversations with Ambassador
Kislyak.
And all I'm asking is, was that the only reason you went to
him, or was there other things that were said in his conversations
with Mr. Kislyak that caused you concern and you wanted to go talk
to him?
Mr. Comey. The Vice President had said that the National
Security Advisor had told the Vice President that the subject of
sanctions never came up in General Flynn's conversations with the
Russians. That's my memory of what the Vice President said. We
knew that was not true.
Mr. Jordan. You knew that sanctions had come up in the
conversation.
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Jordan. But that, in and of itself, is not a problem.
Mr. Comey. Is not --
Mr. Jordan. The fact that the Vice President -- or, excuse
me, the fact that incoming National Security Advisor talks
with -- at this time, he could've already been National Security
Advisor, but -- incoming National Security Advisor talks with the
Russian Ambassador about sanctions, that's not a problem. Your
concern was that the Vice President was reporting publicly or saying publicly that Flynn had not talked about that because Flynn
had told him that.
Mr. Comey. Our concern was -- and Mr. Gowdy asked me about
the Logan Act. That was not my focus, as I recall, at the time;
that I gather there was a statute that prohibited private citizens
and all that but that it wasn't something that had been prosecuted
in 100 years, and so that was not our focus.
Our focus was it appeared that the National Security Advisor
was lying to the Vice President about his communications with the
Russians, and that made no sense to us, and we wanted to
understand what is happening here.
Mr. Jordan. But my point is you knew his conversation -- you
knew what his conversation was with the Russian Ambassador. And
I'm asking, on its face, was there anything in that conversation
that was wrong?
Mr. Comey. And I hesitate only with "wrong." I think a
Department of Justice prosecutor might say, on its face, it was
problematic under the Logan Act because of private citizens
negotiating and all that business. That was not my focus at the
time, as I recall.
Mr. Jordan. The day before you sent two agents over to
interview General Flynn, there's a story in The Washington Post.
Maybe we can give the Director a copy of that story. Can we
get a copy of that?
And I just want to read the first sentence in the story.
"The FBI in late December" -- well, I'll let you get a copy, if
we've got one.
Do we have a copy of that? It's right here?
Okay.
Let me just read it, Director.
"The FBI in late December reviewed intercepts of
communications between the Russian Ambassador to the United States
and retired General Mike Flynn, the National Security Advisor to
then-President-elect Trump, but has not found any evidence of
wrongdoing or illicit ties to the Russian Government, U.S.
officials said."
And all I'm asking is, is that accurate?
Mr. Comey. Can I look at the article, Mr. Jordan?
Mr. Jordan. I'm sorry.
Mr. Comey. Yeah, I don't think I can answer that question,
Mr. Jordan, because the answer calls for classified information.
Mr. Jordan. It "has not found any evidence of wrongdoing or
illicit ties to the Russian Government exist." You can't say
whether that's accurate or not?
Mr. Comey. I can't.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
And then later down, the fourth paragraph, the paragraph that
begins "Although Flynn's contacts with Russian Ambassador
Kislyak," after the comma, it says, "Flynn himself is not the
active target of an investigation, U.S. officials said."
Is that accurate?
Mr. Comey. I can't answer that.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
I want to go back to memo No. 1, if we could get your first
memo to --
Mr. Comey. The February 8th one?
Mr. Jordan. No. I want to go back to the very first one
that you did on the January 6th meeting up in -- excuse me,
January 7th meeting in New York. Friday, the 6th, you meet. The
memo is actually dated the 7th. Do you have that one?
Mr. Comey. Yes. It's in -- sorry.
Mr. Jordan. Okay. Who all went with you, again, to New York
to brief the President-elect?
Mr. Comey. I went literally by myself because I was doing
other FBI business. But we met at Trump Tower with the Director
of the CIA, the Director of the NSA, and the Director of National
Intelligence, and a bunch of security folks, obviously.
Mr. Jordan. So just tell me, though, the head of the
CIA -- tell me -- refresh my memory who everyone is again. Who's
CIA?
Mr. Comey. John Brennan was then the Director of CIA.
Michael Rogers was then the Director of the NSA. And Jim Clapper
was the Director of National Intelligence.
Mr. Jordan. So Mr. Clapper was with you?
Mr. Comey. I'm sorry, sir?
Mr. Jordan. Mr. Clapper was there in New York?
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Jordan. Okay. And you guys, had you talked before?
Because, in this memo, you said, "Clapper wanted me to speak to
the President-elect." So had you talked before this and kind of
choreographed how the meeting was going to go and who was going to
do what?
Mr. Comey. Yes. And we had briefed here on Capitol Hill
that morning to the so-called Gang of Eight and the day before to
President Obama and his senior national security team. So we'd
done the briefing twice already.
And then General Clapper, who was the leader of the team, had
explained to me how it was going to go at Trump Tower.
Mr. Jordan. Okay. So you kind of orchestrated and
choreographed how it was going to go at Trump Tower.
What did you brief the President on exactly?
Mr. Comey. There were two parts to this conversation. The
second part was just the President-elect and I alone. The first
part was the Director of National Intelligence reporting to him,
Mr. Trump, and his team the results of the intelligence community
assessment that we had briefed here on the Hill that morning and
the President -- the then-current President the night before.
Mr. Jordan. In that first part -- was there anything in that
first part about the dossier?
Well, let me ask it this way. Was the dossier only briefed
in the second part with you and the President-elect, just the two of you? Was that the only time the dossier was brought up in that
briefing?
Mr. Comey. I just want to confirm that you mean the
so-called Steele dossier by that term? [yeah the made up one DC]
Mr. Jordan. Yes, the dossier.
Mr. Comey. Yeah. I don't -- the reason I'm hesitating is
there was a portion of the Steele reporting that was the subject
of my private meeting with the President-elect during the prior
session. I don't know whether any of the Steele materials were
referenced there.
And the reason I'm hesitating, Mr. Jordan, is there was a
reference to the materials in part of the written report, the
intelligence community assessment that General Clapper left with
the President-elect.
Mr. Jordan. That's where I wanted to go. So the dossier you
don't think was talked in the general -- talked about in the
bigger, larger, general briefing, but a portion of it was
discussed when you met with the President-elect alone.
Mr. Comey. That's correct.
Mr. Jordan. And the portion was the salacious part about the
Russian hotel.
Mr. Comey. Correct, the --
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Mr. Comey. -- stuff about -- the alleged stuff about the
prostitutes.
Mr. Jordan. Why didn't you brief the President on the entire
dossier? Why just that part?
Mr. Comey. Well, that's why I'm hesitating and saying I'm
not sure whether it was mentioned, I don't think it was, in the
first session, but it was written about in the document that was
left, the so-called ICA, the intelligence community assessment.
But I don't remember General Clapper talking about reporting
from the Steele reports in that first session.
I could be wrong,
but I don't remember it. I remember it clearly in the written
document that was left but not in his oral presentation.
Mr. Jordan. Did you choose just to brief the President-elect
on the salacious part of the dossier, or was that something
Clapper and the rest of the team had instructed you to brief the
President on in just the private meeting with you and the
President?
Mr. Comey. Well, ultimately, it was Clapper's call. I
agreed -- we agreed that it made sense for me to do it and to do
it privately, separately. So I don't want to make it sound like I
was ordered to do it.
Mr. Jordan. So I guess what --
Mr. Comey. I agreed that it made sense.
Mr. Jordan. -- what I'm saying is, if it was -- I just want
to know why. Why didn't you brief him on the whole thing, talk
about this dossier put together by a foreign intelligence source,
we have this information? Why just the salacious part? Why not the whole thing?
Mr. Comey. I don't think -- again, I could be wrong that he
brought it up, but I don't think he brought it up in the first
session, because it wasn't central to the conclusions of the joint
intelligence community assessment. There were lots of other
sources to support the conclusions, and because it wasn't
important to the conclusion, I don't think he brought it up in his
oral presentation.
It was brought up in my -- just that piece, it was brought up
privately, because the goal of the private session was to alert
the incoming President to this piece of it that we thought was
about to become public.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Second page of your memo, at least the way my copy is, the
third-to-last paragraph: I said I was -- I said I wasn't saying
this was true, only that I wanted to let him know that it had been
reported and that reports were in many hands.
Do you see that?
Mr. Comey. Yes, I do.
Mr. Jordan. Next sentence, you said: I said media like CNN
had them, and they were looking for a news hook.
What is a news hook?
Mr. Comey. As I understood the term used by the press people
of the FBI, it was an excuse to publish some event, some reason to
say something was news.
Mr. Jordan. Could a news hook be the fact that you had
actually just briefed the President-elect on this material? Could
that be a news hook, in and of itself?
Mr. Comey. I didn't think of it that way, but I think that
when CNN or one of them ultimately reported, that was, in part,
the hook they had used, that it had been briefed.
Mr. Jordan. Last sentence in that paragraph: I said that it
was inflammatory stuff and that they would get killed for
reporting it straight up from source report.
What did you mean by that sentence?
Mr. Comey. I think what it says: that it was salacious and
unverified material that a responsible journalist wouldn't report
without corroborating in some way. Reporting it straight from the
source reports wouldn't be corroborating it.
Mr. Jordan. So that's what I'm not understanding, is you
felt this was so important that it required a private session with
you and the President-elect, you only spoke of the salacious part
of the dossier, but yet you also say there's no way any good
reporter would print this.
But you felt it was still critical that you had to talk to
the President-elect about it. And I would argue you created the
very news hook that you said you were concerned about.
Mr. Comey. I didn't hear a question, Mr. Jordan.
Mr. Jordan. I guess the question is, if it's so inflammatory
that reporters would get killed for reporting it, why was it so important to tell the President? Particularly when you weren't
going to tell him the rest of the dossier -- about the rest of the
dossier.
Mr. Comey. Well, I don't recall saying to him -- and I don't
read what I wrote here immediately afterwards to say this
either -- that it wouldn't be reported. What I mean by "killed"
is they'd be severely criticized for reporting it, as I
believe -- I forget the outfit that did it -- Buzzfeed, I think,
was severely criticized for reporting it.
So I wasn't telling him it's not going to come out. We're
warning him that it may come out.
Mr. Jordan. In this meeting, did you tell the President who
had financed the dossier?
Mr. Comey. No.
Mr. Jordan. Were you concerned at all that the President
might get the wrong impression, that maybe, in fact, you
were -- you had this important information, that some way you
could hold that over the President's head? Were you concerned
about that? And did you convey it in such a way as to make sure
he didn't go away with that impression?
Mr. Comey. I was very concerned that he might interpret it
as an effort to pull a J. Edgar Hoover on him.
Mr. Jordan. And how did you convey it, then, and -- what did
you say to make sure he understood it in the proper context, or at
least the context you were trying to convey it?
Mr. Comey. By explaining to him the reason that I was doing
it and explaining that it was unverified, that it wasn't something
that we were investigating, and then, once the conversation, in my
judgment, started to go off the rails, by then telling him we were
not investigating him personally.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Can you go to the memo No. 2, the one that's, I think, dated
the 28th, January 28th, 2017, I think recounting your
conversations at dinner with the President from the day before,
the 27th. And I want to go to page 4 of that.
Again, this is where Mr. Gowdy was, in some ways, earlier,
but I kind of want to -- I just want to try to understand this.
When did the White House learn that you had actually
interviewed -- so your conversation with the President -- you have
dinner with the President on the 27th of January. The 24th is the
day -- 3 days earlier is when Mr. Flynn is interviewed by two
agents.
When did the White House actually then learn that General
Flynn had been interviewed by the FBI?
Mr. Comey. I don't know. It's hard because I don't know
what you mean by "the White House." My recollection is that the
Deputy Attorney General went over on the 25th and, I think, on the
26th and spoke to the White House Counsel. My recollection is
that this -- that he had been interviewed came up then. But I
don't know whether people knew about it the day we interviewed him, people besides General Flynn.
Mr. Jordan. Did the President know?
Mr. Comey. I don't know.
Mr. Jordan. In the next-to-last paragraph, last sentence,
you said, "I did not comment at any point during this
topic" -- and the topic is about General Flynn -- "and there was
no mention or acknowledgment of any FBI interest in or contact
with General Flynn."
Tell me what that sentence means there.
Mr. Comey. Say again, sir?
Mr. Jordan. That last sentence you wrote, what do you mean
in that sentence? What are you talking about?
Mr. Comey. Exactly what I said here, that at no time during
the dinner was there a reference, allusion, mention by either of
us about the FBI having contact with General Flynn or being
interested in General Flynn investigatively.
Mr. Jordan. That was what I wanted to know. So this is not
just referring to the President didn't bring it up. You didn't
bring it up either.
Mr. Comey. Correct, neither of us brought it up or alluded
to it.
Mr. Jordan. Why not? He's talking about General Flynn. You
had just interviewed him 3 days earlier and discovered that he was
lying to the Vice President, knew he was lying to the Vice
President, and, based on what we've heard of late, that he lied to your agents. Why not tell his boss, why not tell the head of the
executive branch, why not tell the President of the United States,
"Hey, your National Security Advisor just lied to us 3 days ago"?
Mr. Comey. Because we had an open investigation, and there
would be no reason or a need to tell the President about it.
Mr. Jordan. Really?
Mr. Comey. Really.
Mr. Jordan. You wouldn't tell the President of the United
States that his National Security Advisor wasn't being square with
the FBI?
Mr. Comey. I wouldn't until our investigation -- I certainly
wouldn't consider it while the investigation was open.
Mr. Jordan. I mean, but this is not just any investigation,
it seems to me, Director. This is a top advisor to the Commander
in Chief. And you guys, based on what we've heard, felt that he
wasn't being honest with the Vice President and wasn't honest with
two of your agents. And just 3 days later, you're meeting with
the President, and, oh, by the way, the conversation is about
General Flynn. And you don't tell the President anything?
Mr. Comey. I did not.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Mr. Meadows. So, Director Comey, let me make sure I
understand this. You were so concerned that Michael Flynn may
have lied or did lie to the Vice President of the United States,
but that once you got that confirmed, that he had told a falsehood, you didn't believe that it was appropriate to tell the
President of the United States that there was no national security
risk where you would actually convey that to the President of the
United States? Is that your testimony?
Mr. Comey. That is correct. We had an --
Mr. Meadows. I just find that --
Mr. Kelley. Let him finish the answer.
Mr. Comey. We had an open investigation, criminal
investigation, counterintelligence investigation. There was no
way I would discuss that with the President.
Now, I was aware that the Deputy Attorney General had gone
and voiced the Department of Justice's concerns about his
susceptibility to blackmail at a high level to the White House.
But, during this dinner, it did not -- I did not and would
not talk about a pending criminal investigation with the
President.
Mr. Meadows. Well, was it a criminal investigation at that
point or a counterintelligence investigation?
Mr. Comey. It was both. Every counterintelligence
investigation has, as an aspect, criminal --
Mr. Meadows. It has potential criminal -- but it was opened
as a counterintelligence investigation.
Mr. Comey. Correct.
Mr. Meadows. And so, was there a criminal investigation
opened at this point?
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Jordan. I mean, Director, it just strikes me as that's,
it seems to me, twice in a 3-day period where you did not inform
the White House of something that seemed to be pretty important
information.
I want to move on to memo No. 6, which is the 3/30/17 memo,
if I could.
Mr. Comey. Okay. I have it.
Mr. Jordan. Now, Director, actually, one of the things I
wanted to ask you, too, is -- so when I went through the memos, I
think on seven different occasions you referenced the fact that
you are not investigating the President. And the President is
pretty clear he would love for you to have made that information
public, told the American people that the President, their
President, the guy they elected, wasn't under investigation.
Why didn't you do that? Why wouldn't you just tell the
American people he is not under investigation?
Mr. Comey. Two reasons. First, I wouldn't do it without the
approval and direction of the leadership of the Department of
Justice, one. Two, saying that publicly had significant
consequences, both in terms of creating a duty to correct and
potentially being misleading.
Mr. Jordan. At the end of this memo, you say, "I called
Acting Attorney General and relayed the substance of the above and
said I was telling him so he could decide what guidance to give me, if any," which sort of squares with what you just
answered -- what you just said to my previous question.
What did the AG say?
Mr. Comey. I don't recall him saying anything then except
"Thanks for telling me," and then my conversation with the Acting
AG ended. I didn't hear back from him on the subject before the
President called me again 10 or so days later.
Mr. Jordan. But from March 30th, 2017, when you write this
memo until you leave the FBI a month and a half later, you never
heard back from the Attorney General with an answer to your
question?
I mean, that's a pretty important question. The President
is -- seven different times in your interactions with the
President, he has said,
"Hey, can you let the American people know
I'm not under investigation?"
You said,
"You know what? There's
a way to do this. We're going to work through proper channels.
I'm going to call Dana Boente over at Justice, and we're going to
get an answer."
And you do that on the 30th of March. And you're
still FBI Director until May 9th, I believe. So, in that 7-week
time period, no answer from the Justice Department?
Mr. Comey. To be clear, I just want to correct one thing you
said, Mr. Jordan. I didn't tell the President we would get an
answer. I told him that I would relay his request.
Mr. Jordan. I didn't ask --
Mr. Comey. I contacted --
Mr. Jordan. -- that, but that's fine.
Mr. Comey. After the President called back -- and I think it
was April 11th -- to ask about it again, the President
said -- when I told him I had relayed his request, the President
said he would have the White House Counsel follow up directly with
the Department of Justice to get an answer.
And I think my chief of staff spoke to Mr. Boente at that
point to tell him that we'd gotten another call, and Mr. Boente
said, in substance, "Oh, God, I was hoping that would go away."
And --
Mr. Jordan. Wait, wait. Say that again. Acting Attorney
General Boente said what?
Mr. Comey. My recollection is he said something to the
effect of, "Oh, God, I was hoping that would go away" when he was
contacted the second time to say the President wanted to know the
answer.
Mr. Jordan. And the second time, that contact was from you
or White House Counsel?
Mr. Comey. No. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm screwing it up.
The President called me March 30th. I relayed his request to
the Acting Attorney General. I didn't hear back.
The President calls me again. Again, I think it's
April 11th. Says, "What did you do with what I had asked?"
I
told him I had given it to the Acting Attorney General. And we
had a conversation where he said he understood the way to proceed was to have the White House Counsel ask the Justice Department to
get out that he wasn't under investigation.
Then we gave a heads-up.
I think -- I don't think I did it
directly. I think my chief of staff did it. Called Mr. Boente
and said, "The President just called. Wants to know what happened
with that thing."
And Mr. Boente's reaction was, in substance,
"Oh, God, I was hoping that would go away."
Mr. Jordan. But that's on the 10th of April.
Mr. Comey. I think the 11th of April maybe. I could have
the dates wrong.
Mr. Jordan. Okay, 10th or 11th of April. So, again, you've
got another month still on the job. Nothing happened?
Mr. Comey. I don't know what happened. I don't remember any
further conversations that I was involved in until I was fired on
May the 9th.
Mr. Jordan. Okay.
Mr. Gowdy. Director Comey, I think your counsel has a copy
of one of the exhibits to the Cohen sentencing memo that purports
to be the notes of Andy McCabe. Do you see that?
Mr. Comey. I see the document dated January 24th, 2017.
Mr. Gowdy. That's right. Will you look at the last
paragraph with me, kind of the sentence in the middle? "I
explained that I thought the quickest way to get this done was to
have a conversation between him and the agents only."
Does that change your impression of whether or not the Bureau discouraged him from having White House Counsel or other lawyers
present?
Mr. Comey. Let me just read the whole paragraph, if I could.
Okay. Could you say your question again, sir?
Mr. Gowdy. Well, you and I were quibbling a little bit over
whether or not you took exception to something in a serial
question I asked you about whether the Bureau discouraged General
Flynn from having either White House Counsel or other counsel
present. And you took exception to that, and that's why I went
and got the document. And I'm wondering whether or not you still
take exception to that in light of what you read.
Mr. Comey. I take exception to your characterization of it
as discouraging. But I'm reading Andy -- and I'm sure Andy this
wrote this accurately, that he had said the quickest way to get
this done was to have a conversation between him and the agents
only.
Mr. Gowdy. All right.
Mr. Comey. So I would read it as encouraging him to meet
with the agents without White House Counsel present. [What a snake this mealy mouth penis breath is D.C]
Mr. Gowdy. Well, what's the next sentence?
Mr. Comey. "I further stated that if Lieutenant General
Flynn wished to include anyone else in the meeting, like the
White House Counsel, for instance, that I would need to involve
the Department of Justice. He stated this would not be
necessary."
Mr. Gowdy. Then, if you look at the first sentence, "I
explained to Lieutenant General Flynn that my desire was to have
two of my agents interview him as quickly, quietly, and discreetly
as possible."
So you've got the Deputy Director of the FBI saying let's do
this quick, it's not going to be quick if you involve other
people, and you do not think that that sends the --
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Gowdy. I'm not going to make you listen to two people at
the same time.
Mr. Comey. I got it. Go ahead. Sorry.
Mr. Gowdy. You do not think that that left the impression
with General Flynn that he needed to go ahead and do it without
counsel involved?
Mr. Comey. I can't speak to the impression it left with
General Flynn. I take these words -- in a memo I haven't seen
before, but I take them to be accurately recounting what Andy's
conversation was.
Mr. Gowdy. Why was it important to do it so quickly?
Mr. Comey. I don't know what Andy meant by "quickly." I
wanted it done quickly because the best investigations are done
promptly, before things sit around and people have an opportunity
to take your investigation in different directions. You jump on
it; you go get an interview done.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. But if --
Mr. Comey. That's how I've always investigated.
Mr. Gowdy. -- if your goal is to get the Vice President to
quit misspeaking publicly, you could have told the Vice President,
"Quit saying that. It's not true."
Mr. Comey. Could have. Yeah.
Mr. Gowdy. I want you to flip over to the affidavit, if you
will, from Peter Strzok, who was one of the two Bureau agents that
interviewed Flynn.
Mr. Comey. I'm sorry, I don't see an affidavit.
Mr. Gowdy. Page 3. Do you see that?
Mr. Comey. I'm looking for an affidavit. I don't -- hold
on.
Mr. Gowdy. Maybe it's a 302.
Mr. Comey. I see a 302 from an interview on 7/19/2017 of
Peter Strzok.
Mr. Gowdy. I am looking at one date of August 22nd, 2017.
Mr. Comey. Okay, hold on.
I got it. I'm sorry.
Mr. Gowdy. Can you look at page 3?
Mr. Comey. Oh, I see. The write-up is August 22nd; the
interview is 7/19. That's what was confusing me.
I got it. Page 3.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. Second full paragraph, begins "Before
the interview"?
Mr. Comey. I see that, yep.
Mr. Gowdy. "Before the interview,
McCabe" -- redacted -- "and others decided the agents would not
warn Flynn that it was a crime to lie during an FBI interview
because they wanted Flynn to be relaxed and they were concerned
that giving him the warnings might adversely affect the rapport."
You could fashion an argument, Director Comey, that the
purpose of an FBI interview is not so much to establish a rapport
as to get the facts and the truth.
Do you believe that warning someone that there are
consequences for not telling the truth adversely affects your
getting the truth?
Mr. Comey. It can, yes.
Mr. Gowdy. So you did consider warning him and decided not
to.
Mr. Comey. I did not.
Mr. Gowdy. But you see that McCabe and others did.
Mr. Comey. I see this paragraph in the 302 that they had a
conversation about it. I wasn't present for it, but I see that
they did.
Mr. Gowdy. And they made the deliberate decision not to
advise him that there were consequences for lying because they,
quote, "did not want to adversely affect the rapport."
Mr. Comey. I see that. Totally reasonable, consistent with
the FBI's practice in thousands of interviews.
Mr. Gowdy. Well, in our next hour, Director Comey, we are going to go -- we are going to contrast the decision to not allow
Michael Flynn to have an attorney, or discourage him from having
one, with allowing some other folks the Bureau interviewed to have
multiple attorneys in the room, including fact witnesses.
Can you see the dichotomy there, or is that an unreasonable
comparison?
Mr. Comey. I'm not going to comment on that. I remember you
asking me questions about that last week. I'm happy to answer
them again.
Mr. Gowdy. You will not say whether or not it is an
unreasonable comparison to compare allowing multiple attorneys,
who are also fact witnesses, to be present during an interview but
discouraging another person from having counsel present?
Mr. Comey. I'm not going to answer that in a vacuum,
Mr. Gowdy. Someone who has a lawyer, and you know as an
investigator that person is represented -- to have an interview
with that person that you know to be represented is a violation of
your ethical duties as a lawyer and an FBI agent. So they're
totally different circumstances.
Mr. Gowdy. Is that why you went through White House Counsel
for the Obama and the Bush administrations?
Mr. Comey. I didn't go through White House Counsel for the
Obama --
Mr. Gowdy. You've said that was the protocol.
Mr. Kelley. No, that's not what he said. He said he hasn't had experience doing that in either the Obama or Bush
administrations.
Mr. Gowdy. You said the protocol was to go through
White House Counsel, correct?
Mr. Comey. That was what I understood, yes.
Mr. Gowdy. Were there any deviations from that protocol?
Mr. Comey. I don't know.
Mr. Gowdy. So it was protocol and practice to go through
White House Counsel to interview administration officials under
Bush and Obama.
Mr. Comey. No. My understanding was, to do an interview at
the White House complex, we would arrange -- the FBI would arrange
those interviews through the White House Counsel's Office. I
never participated in one, don't know of one, but I have a
recollection that's what the protocol was. Not that they would
have a lawyer present, but to arrange it, they would do it through
the White House Counsel.
Mr. Gowdy. There's a note that Sally Yates was very upset
when she learned about the interview. Is that accurate?
Mr. Comey. Yes.
Mr. Gowdy. What was she upset about?
Mr. Comey. That I had sent the agents to do the interview
without telling her.
Mr. Gowdy. Why would that upset her?
Mr. Comey. Because she had been involved in conversations about what to do about the apparent false statements that the Vice
President was making publicly and felt that she should've been
consulted before agents were dispatched to interview Flynn.
Mr. Gowdy. And I think your testimony was, at least once and
possibly twice, she went and met with White House Counsel after
your Flynn interview?
Mr. Comey. Correct. Maybe both of the next 2 days. At
least one of those 2 days.
Mr. Gowdy. And she took Mary McCord with her? Does that
ring a bell?
Mr. Comey. Yeah, it rings a general bell. I think so. I'm
certain she went. It rings a bell that Mary McCord went, but I
can't say for certain.
Mr. Gowdy. Am I mischaracterizing prior testimony by saying
that the Bureau was about to wrap up its Michael Flynn
investigation at the time this conversation with the Russian
Ambassador took place?
Mr. Comey. I don't think that's one I can answer. In other
words, I think that calls for an answer that's still classified.
And I'll consult with the FBI. If they tell me it's not, I'm
happy to tell you later.
Mr. Gowdy. Okay.
[Discussion off the record.] [11:20 a.m.]
Mr. Comey. Sorry, no luck. I can't answer that question. [Trump needs to unclassify all of this DC]
Mr. Gowdy. You can't answer any part of it? You can't
answer that there was an investigation of Michael Flynn? You
can't answer that it was about to wrap up? Both?
Mr. Comey. Either of those.
Mr. Gowdy. Okay. A couple more questions, and then we'll
cede time to our colleagues on the other side.
If President Trump had told you he was going to let Michael
Flynn go, is that obstruction?
Mr. Comey. I'm not going to answer a hypothetical, Mr.
Gowdy.
Mr. Gowdy. Why not?
Mr. Comey. Because I'm not. It is irresponsible to answer
hypotheticals. I tried to do a lot of it last time. I will
answer factual questions, but the what-ifs and what-abouts, I'm
just not going the answer those.
Mr. Gowdy. All right. Well, let me see if we can get at it
this way. From a factual standpoint, what is your understanding
of the power to pardon?
Mr. Comey. I'm not qualified to answer. I mean, I know the
pardon power is written in the United States Constitution. It is
broad. It is sweeping. Beyond that, you would have to talk to an
expert.
Mr. Gowdy. What are the limitations -- you're right that it is broad and sweeping. What are the limitations?
Mr. Comey. The same answer I gave you earlier, I'm not
qualified to answer that question.
Mr. Gowdy. If the President had told you he was going to
talk to Jeff Sessions about letting Flynn go, would that
constitute obstruction?
Mr. Comey. I'm not going to answer a hypothetical.
Mr. Gowdy. All right.
Mr. Jordan. Hey, can I get one more question real quick?
Director, are there other versions of your memos, other
drafts or other versions?
Mr. Comey. Not that I'm aware of. Than what you have here
before me?
Mr. Jordan. Right.
Mr. Comey. Not that I'm aware of.
Mr. Jordan. When you the drafted memo -- I think last time
we talked, you said put together a memo; you would meet with your
top people, go through it, go over it. What kinds of changes were
made? Were there changes made to the memo after you had had those
discussions with the leadership of the FBI?
Mr. Comey. I don't remember any changes to memos after I
initialed them and dated them and then shared them with the team.
I don't remember any changes as a result of consultation with the
team.
Mr. Jordan. Okay. Thank you.
End Morning Session
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